Train Dreams with Adolpho Veloso
Train Dreams Cinematographer Adolpho Veloso
Benji is joined by Oscar-nominated cinematographer Adolpho Veloso to discuss his work on Train Dreams (2025) and Jockey (2021). The conversation starts with Veloso describing life growing up in São Paulo and his love of cinema. Benji then asks Veloso about the filmmakers who inspired him, including César Charlone and Rodrigo Prieto.
They then discuss Veloso’s first collaboration with director Clint Bentley and actor Clifton Collins, Jr. on the 2021 drama, Jockey. This discussion is followed by a breakdown of Veloso’s work on Train Dreams, including the artistic approach, challenges, and filming within sets built on location in Spokane and near the Idaho border.
Finally, they talk about the incredibly warm reception of Train Dreams among audiences and critics alike and what’s next for Veloso’s career.
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Adolpho Veloso on Train Dreams and Jockey — Full Transcript
Our guest for today's episode is the cinematographer from movies that include Jockey and Train Dreams. His name is Adolpho Veloso. This podcast is called All Those Moments. I'm Benji Wade. Enjoy the show. In time, my life. my god, I'm so excited to do this, man. Me too. It's been a long time. First of all, how is Lisbon? Yeah, Lisbon is great. It's right now the sun is setting, so light might change while we talk. But it's the best time of today. Well, Adolpho, it's so great to see you. did you know that I'm in Spokane? Yes, I know, the magic lantern.
Magic lantern, baby. Yeah, that's right. And right now it is It my go to place when I was there. I I think that's the reason I loved Spokane the most because I found the Magic Lantern and I would go there. they're gonna love this so much. Do you remember what movies you watched there? I watched Challengers. what else? Zone of Interest, I think. That those two for sure, but I I've definitely watched more. I don't think I've seen a single Luca Guadanino movie. Well, you should try. See what you think. I'm definitely gonna do that. yeah, so I'm in Spokane and it's snowing right now. my god. Yeah. I just want to start our conversation by sharing that I now have a Pavlovian response to seeing clips from Train Dreams. The moment I hear Bryce's music, I have lost many tears to this movie. As someone who lives in Spokane and knows a lot of the local filmmaking community who helped make this movie.
I just want to start by saying that we're really, really proud in Spokane of Train Dreams. that's amazing to hear. Spokane gave us so much, and the only reason the movie exists is because of Spokane. So it's good to know that it's a happy thing for Spokane too. Yeah. I mean, and every day I just keep seeing more and more information. I am actually I just wanted to chat with you about this from the start. I'm gonna have a conversation with Alexandra Schaller, the production designer as well, next week. Genius. Yes. And every time she drops some new information, I'm like, my God. That's how they did it. Yeah, she's posting all the BTS and it's amazing. Everything she did. I don't think people realize necessarily how amazing her work is because we shot everything on location and she built everything on location. So all single sets you see are built on location and
It's just impressive. And it's a huge part of how you were able to accomplish what you accomplished. And I really want to dive into that in terms of like three sixty shooting and allowing Joel or Felicity or anyone who is involved in the project or Bill Macy to just walk around and to follow them. I can't wait to talk about that. But to set the table for the conversation and how I'd love to go about this, if it's okay with you, I'd like to talk about how you got to this point in your career. I was also going to ask you some technical things about your cinematography on this project, Adolpho.
But after your incredible interview and conversation with Eduard Grau from American Cinematographer, I threw away most of those questions. And I'm just gonna I'm just gonna drop notes to the that link on Vimeo, that hour-long conversation that you had with Edward, because it's incredible. Just a couple of legends. Shooting the shit about shooting some shit. I just thought it was it was a remarkable conversation. And I will add a link. He was so good. His enthusiasm I found infectious. I'm like, if Eduard Grau feels this way about this. I was I was impressed myself. I was, I can't believe his he loved the movie and I can't believe he's saying those things. So yeah. But yeah, I just wanted to learn a little bit about you growing up in São Paulo and how it took you to where you are in your career, like visual storytelling.
You have mentioned in a couple conversations that you didn't get into cinematography through photography. You got into it because you just love movies. Well, yeah, no one in my family does anything related to filmmaking. So or arts in general, to be honest. At some point in my life, film just became a really important part of of of my life. And I think it was just that thing that was like kind of a portal to other worlds and I feel like I always been a traveler even before wanting to travel or being able to travel. So I feel like films were kind of bad for me in the beginning. Yeah, I don't know. I fell in love with with movies and early on I decided that that would that's what I wanted to do. I'm really happy my mom was supportive about it. And even though most parents are probably
Scared when they hear that their kids want to pursue this career. You're never gonna make any money doing that. Exactly. And my sister is is a scientist. So she had two kids. One wanted to be a scientist, the other one a filmmaker, and I don't feel like she saw any good possibilities. Yeah, but now I mean my sister is doing amazing, she's a professor at the São Paulo University, best university in Latin America. And so she she's doing really well. Yeah, and then I went to film school back in in Brazil, in São Paulo. because I I fell in love with filmmaking and not photography necessarily. In the beginning, before I went to film school, I I thought I wanted to be a director because that's the only thing I knew that existed behind the camera, because I knew for sure I didn't want to be in front of the camera.
And then when I went to film school, I realized the part I really enjoyed was the camera and lighting and blocking and et cetera. That was it. I I actually worked in all other departments besides camera or lighting. I worked in, I mean I was a PA for a while. I did, I did a bunch of things that were non-related to that, but I was hoping I would become a cinematographer one day, so I was doing like short films and music videos and really shitty things as a cinematographer and that's basically how I learned to do it. And then yeah, at some point I started shooting like really small commercials and the stuff that they would say, okay, we don't have anything, we just have this camera and you can use the lamps if you want and that's it. And slowly those things became bigger and bigger and
I started shooting more commercials and bigger commercials while I still shooting like short films and music videos. And then at some point things just kinda went step by step. I started shooting other stuff in other countries in Latin America, Argentina especially, Uruguay, some point Mexico, then Europe, then North America, then all over the world. And I was I mean, I've been fortunate to be able to shoot all over the world. from China to Uruguay to Canada to everywhere. So it was a bit of step by step, a bunch of luck also being in the right place at the right time. Speak speaking of Uruguay, did you get to meet Cesar Sharlone? Not really I'm a huge fan. He's probably top three cinematographers for me. City of God is like a masterpiece. Incredible
I feel like one of the reasons that I believed I can do what I do is also because I saw people doing that in Brazil and with City of God and other movies. so I'm a huge fan. We talked already on like Instagram and email, stuff like that, but I never actually met him in person. Well, one of the questions I want to ask you when you were growing up in São Paulo were and you went to film school, were the films of like Nelson Pereira dos Santos, like were you studying that type of stuff in school? Yes, I was, but I to be honest, back then I was like, my god, what's happening here? You know, I w I didn't I didn't see it the way I see it today. I feel like it was a hard ask for a teenager and people would glamoratize it and be like, my god and I couldn't really understand it. I feel like it was a slower process to me to to get to those movies. And nowadays I think it's just amazing, but those were not the movies that early on were the movies that I could
connect to and relate. Nowadays I I watch them and I feel like okay this is this is this is golden. Back then no not really. I feel like movies like City of God made a huge impact on me back then and like even Baltersale's things and Central Station and I don't know. There's a movie called I I I I I don't know the name in English, but called Nahaduis Diabet. Masterpiece also, but yeah, there's so many movies that were kind of easier for me to connect as a youngster. My brain is firing like crazy right now. I'm like motorcycle diaries, yes. I know you are a fan of Rodrigo Prieto. Beautiful is like is one of my yeah, it's one of the most and I was fortunate too after I went to film school, I I did I mean years later I did a master class in in LA.
at the ASC clubhouse and one of the teachers was Rodrigo Prieto and I think that changed everything for me. It was probably the best lessons I ever had as a cinematographer. And the way he he spoke about how everything for him was motivated, I've I think really really opened everything for me in a way because that's w was basically what I was doing anyway without knowing that I was doing that and and trying to find ways because as we were talking before, because I don't I don't come from a photography background and more from a filmmaking aspect to it. I always just know where to put the camera or which lens to choose or how to light it because of the story and there's always like a motivation behind and to hear the things that he did on on
Even choices of lenses. I remember him talking about Babel and the reason that he shot everything on spherical lenses, but the the character that that is deaf he shot with onomorphic lenses to portray that separation that she had from the rest of the world. I was like, my god, you can like choose those things because of what the characters are feeling that like exploded in my mind and that kind of became really part of how I see things today. Also well it was so it was your nonfiction work that got the attention of Clint Bentley originally. So I I would love to just chat about the starting place with Jockey. So this I would call it like a dream team forms in I assume twenty nineteen you have Clint Bentley, Greg Kwedar, the producers and co-writers. You have
Bryce Dessner at that point, it was his brother as well from the National, which is, by the way, my favorite band. that's that's good. I also have to shout out Parker Laramie, the editor. Yes. And then Clifton Collins Jr. gets attached, and we'll come back to Clifton in a moment. but in 2019, Clint Bentley reaches out because you've been working nonfiction. Was the vibe between you like instant when you met? Yeah, I mean, he yeah, he wrote me. Because he wanted to do Jockey, which I was like, my god, who are those two guys? Sending me an email, I have no idea. Let's see. and then at that point Greg had directed Transpacles already. So I watched Transpachos and I liked it. And I read the script and I liked it. But I wasn't like in love with anything yet. And then I remember one day Clint just sent me a video
of the horse track of in the morning with with the guys doing the morning like practice. And it looked so good already. It was such a beautiful place. We shot in in Phoenix, Arizona. And Turf Paradise. And that was that horse track. And it it just looks so good. And I could see already like The magic on it and the fact that he sent me that video say like, okay, he knows how to get me, you know, and and we we have kind of some a certain taste already that it's it's kind of the same. At that point was he already was he already talking to you about shooting twenty days of magic hours? No, not really. I feel like it was bit almost the the other way around. And was that your idea?
Well, I think it it came a bit from so many things. Like I feel like it it is a lot for me pushing him and saying, like, why we're gonna shoot in bad time of the day if we can shoot in the good time of the day. But on Jockey there was something about that's actually the times of the day that they practice. They they they don't stay there in the middle of the day because it's so hot. So they go really early. Like that that's the time like everything that we have of practice of like that first scene, for example. Everything is happening for real in the background. We just had Clifton with one of those jockeys talking on the rails while the guys are really practicing in the background, you know. So it's basically the times of the day that they do their their thing. In the day big middle of the day is so hot so they avoid to be outside. So it had a lot to do with that too. And then there was the whole metaphor of like the sunset of that guy's career and how we wanted it to feel like
That nostalgic moment of the day where there is that thing about being kind of scary, like night is coming, but it's also the most beautiful moment of the day. So there were so many metaphors that worked on the movie also. Yeah, when you mentioned the Pri Prieto and the motivation thing, and I saw a quote from you where you talked about the sun was setting on Jackson's career and it was rising on Gabriel's career. By the way, shout out Moisés Arias. Moises. I thought Moises, look, it I'm just admitting this, just being honest. I Googled because I was like, that must be an actual Jockey. He was so he was so convincing in that role. No, it turns out he's an artist and a photographer and a wonderful actor. I mean, the synchronicity of this opportunity, now you've done it twice with this team, of a director who specifically wants you to go about this in a documentary verite style. You've got this group of actors ready to turn in the best work of their careers in Clifton Collins Jr., Molly Parker, Moisés Arias.
This beautifully written script and a budget to me that seems unfathomable. I mean, I can see a a lot of people saying that they want to do this sort of thing, but it really does require a bunch of people pulling in the same direction and fully committing to it. The movie you mentioned in an interview that it had a $300,000 budget and I like spit out my coffee. I'm like, that's it's impossible to make a movie for that amount of money. So how did you feel about it when that movie finally released in twenty twenty one? Because I assume it got caught up in the post production and from the pandemic. It was a surprise. I remember back then when I'm before I even read the script, or I remember talking with my agent back then about it. And I was like, should should I do it? Should I not? Like it would be my first movie in the US. And I remember something he told me back then, which is like, there's two options here. Either it's gonna be great, it's gonna be a great movie and it's gonna be awesome for you.
Or it's gonna be horrible and no one's gonna watch it, so it won't change anything. So you should do it. And I was like, okay, it makes sense, you know. And it's hard to know, like as you say, like looking back now and knowing that knowing the artist that I know now, that you know now that Clint is, and knowing the artist that Parker is and Bryce and everything that combined with that such an amazing cast, it is kind of Okay to watch it now and say, okay, this has had a good combination. But when you were doing it, you kind of like completely blind going into it. Like you have some trust. Like we had an amazing cast. That was the main trust for me in terms of we have really good actors. But I had no idea how clean would be with improvising with all the other cast members that were first-time actors. I had no idea how they would play. I had no idea how we could.
make it happen with the budget we had, with the the the the money and the time we had. So I feel like it's just so many things that you have no idea how it's gonna go. I just want anybody listening to this podcast right now or watching it on YouTube to stop what you're doing and watch Jockey because it's a fucking incredible movie. Some of the visual language that you were developing with your co-conspirator Clint Bentley. Why you know I'm stepping on this movie a little bit, but There's a moment where wild horses are crossing a stream and Clifton Collins Jr. is standing there. And I I stopped that movie to just go, did that just happen? So the way that you guys are going about these things, which is it's brave. A lot of people would say that they'd love to make a movie like that, but it does require a lot of bravery. So kudos to you. can we talk about Clifton Collins for just a moment before? Of course. Genius. Total genius. There's something that you and Clint do with Jockey.
That I think kind of lays a foundation of your style together. And it continues with train dreams, but let's give Jockey some flowers because it deserves them. You were in the space of these performers, Adolpho, for a really long time. Even when it's like shot reverse shot, you're often like the Cohen brothers, you're like in the middle of the space. And I just want to ask, how did you come to that choice back to Prieto and motivation? And where did that interest come from? The level of comfort it would require. For you as a shooter and the actor that you have this relationship with to be in that space for that length of time.
Stay off the rail. You win it by a mile. I think that's that's the thing and I feel like that's why it's so key for me to operate the camera myself, because I believe that you need to have such a great relationship with the actors. It it's almost like a a dancing ballet together, you know, like you need to be so much in sync and you need to trust so much each other that I don't see that happening if there is not this built relationship with synchronization and with really knowing that you have each other's back somehow. Yeah. And I feel like especially with actors like Clifton or Joel, they are so amazing, talking about Clifton right now, he's so amazing on really becoming the character in a way that I knew that I just had to be there grabbing what he was giving us.
You know, and I feel like that's what something like going back to what you mentioned about Clint. The reason he wanted and he looked at my documentary work and he wanted to have cinematographer with that eye too is because we were going to shoot a lot of non-actors and we were going to blend a lot of scripted scenes with improvised scenes and a bunch of like scenes from the horse track itself. But I feel like what we realized together also is that even with our Actors that are professional actors and have have been doing that for a long time. If you allow them the space to improvise and to be more those characters than necessarily being an actor, you know, so many good things can come from that. And and that's something that comes a lot from Clint and for the way he allows that to happen and encourages all departments to always be be open to everything.
And I feel like as you said, yeah, go watch Jockey. I think most of anything because of Clifton. Clifton is just I don't know, I feel like he was born to do that role also, but he's just amazing and and it's it's just such a beautiful movie because of him. It's all of you, brother. It's a three hander, it's Clifton, it's Molly Parker, it's Moisés Arias. Th these people need to see Jockey. I do have a message from Clifton for you. He says Well
He shared this with me. Adolpho, he is pure magic in addition to being a humble and beautiful artist. that's so kind. He he's the he's the one, he's the pure magic here. He's really a special person. And I feel like it's one of those geniuses that it's also a lovely human being, you know, and that's not often the case. Well, let's use that note from Clifton to talk about train dreams because he also has a very special appearance in that movie. So I have to pat my chest. I'm ready to get emotional. Adolpho, we're gonna talk about trained dreams. Let's go for it. Let's go for it. When you first read the script, I'd love I'd love to just ask you what your reaction was to the story. Had you read the novella first or did you read the script first? No, I did not read it. the first thing I read was a a draft that Clint sent me, one of his early drafts. And I said this before. But it's it's it's amazing how much
I connected to it regardless of the fact that Clint was sending it to me because that was already enough reason for me to want to do the movie. but I connected to to the script in in such a deep level. It it is the story about this man that not only is a quiet person and more introspective like I am myself, but also A guy that goes for work away from home and he stays several months away, with a bunch of people he never saw before that he might never see again, and a bunch of really eccentric people who and all sorts of different people that come from all over the place. And then that makes him be away from his family and his house and friends, and he's missing a lot of things.
And when he goes back home it's really hard to reconnect to that place, feel like he belongs, all the things that changed while he was away. And that's basically my life as a cinematographer, you know, like I I wasn't spoken for four months of my life with a bunch of people I never saw before, a bunch of incredible people, a bunch of eccentric people, a bunch of experiences that I never had before. I know some of these people, they are eccentric, Adolpho. Correct. And when I come back home, it's always hard to also reconnect to the place, feel like I belong, and all everything that changes, everything I missed, the amount of birthdays and weddings and special moments I missed because of of work. So there's also all this personal connection with Robert's character that made the film important to me from from the beginning. There's also the aspect that is not
greenest character, but it is present in the movie of the struggles of being an immigrant and everything you face with that that in other levels I face myself. so there was so many aspects in the movie and I feel like again, as I said, I I would do anything with Clint, but I was happy this was a story I could connect. And speaking of Clint and Greg's script. This is probably a good moment to congratulate them for winning the best adapted screenplay by the National Board of Review. I'll just say I have a very sensitive ear for dialogue and they are outstanding writers of language and speech and the type of conversation and dialogue between characters that you just immediately find quite resonant.
I loved what you said to Edward in your interview, mentioning that you didn't want to screw things up once Joel Edgerton and William H. Macy were attached, you're like, God, the pressure's on. Well, I feel like that's me in this conversation. So No In the same way that you related to Robert Grainier in Train Dreams, I I wanna talk a little bit about the sources of inspiration. I won't go into this at length because I really wanted to get into some of the details about the train dreams, but I loved the ambition of setting your sights on things like Tarkovsky's The Mirror or Terrence Malick's Days of Heaven. But I can't help but ask about another cinematographer with a background in nonfiction and Roger Deakins. So was the Andrew Dominic film The Assassination of Jesse James? It's something we brought up on our podcast in conversation with local best selling author Jess Walter. Was that a conversation you had with Clinton Gregg, that movie? No. I mean, it's definitely an influence. I love
I mean, first of all, D King's everything he does, I feel like he's a reference and it has always been for me, and especially that movie. I honestly believe I'm destined for great things, mister James. I got qualities that don't come shinin' through right at the outset. But it's not something that we necessarily talked about it, which is funny because I think the movies that people mention the most are not only The Assassination of Jesse James, but also like in animal movies, you know, and we we've been hearing that a lot. And it's not something that we ever discussed, Clint and I. I feel like both those directors are big influences for us anyway. And I feel like they are
a big influence to what we do and the way we see things, but it's not a conversation we had. So it's funny to see that translated and when I watch the movie obviously I can see it. Have you seen Kelly Reichardt's first cow? Yes. Have you seen that movie? Yes, yes. That's that's one that I thought about a lot too. Yeah. A beautiful movie by the way. it's so special. So special. But but I feel like that's the thing, though. What the the movie we talked the most about were I mean the movies we talked the most about were the Tarkovsky, you know, and not necessarily f something that people grab it. I saw like one or two letterbox revealed and mention it and I was like, okay, that person got it.
It's amazing to see that other things that we don't didn't necessarily talk came naturally. And I feel like that's the amazing thing also about working with Clint. We have brains that kind of operate in in in in in a good way together. I was Clint sent me the other day an interview with Joe. that Joe was basically talking about working with me and Clint. And he said that for him was basically watching Two sides of the same brain combined together. And I feel like that that's it. Like we we often have the same ideas and think in the same way in a complementary way that we don't necessarily need to talk about it. So I feel like we never talked about Malik and that just came out in the movie, you know, if just because it's a it's a big influence for us both. These movies end up in conversation with one another, whether you realize it or not. And I think that what
is so wonderful about Train Dreams is that it it fits right inside the space of all those movies we just talked about. And it's one of the reasons that as I mentioned at the start of the conversation, everyone in Spokane, especially people in Spokane who really care about movies are so proud of it. I want to talk a little bit about filming in Spokane. You had mentioned this in a conversation that I I read where the crew was supposed to shoot portions of the movie in 2023 during wildfires that were happening in Medical Lake, which is about 15 miles west of Spokane.
And so for people who don't know, in 2023, there was a 10,000 acre wildfire that burned hundreds of homes, it destroyed neighborhoods, and all of it only took hours to happen. I think a lot of people who watch this film or read the novella don't realize how quickly wildfires can destroy lives, especially when you don't have an automobile that you can jump into and hit a freeway to get out. Yeah. So what I loved learning, and I can't wait to talk to Alexandra Schaller, the production designer, about this, but The cabin was built on location in Medical Lake. Correct. And I thought I thought that is so insane. Yeah. I mean, there's two phases of the cabin, right? The the one pre burn and the one after like that space where the cabin was supposed to be after the fire. And that's basically another location that looked kind of the same, but that has been burned. So that burn forest it was actually burned at that
fire in 2023. So everything, I mean, again, looks real because it is what it is. And when we went there in 2023 for that first attempt of shooting that got shut down because of the the strike, it was exactly the week that that fire happened. So we were basically seen watching everything that was happening and we We would even avoid going outside because of the amount of smoke and that whole orange tinted smoke that it's just unhealthy even to be outside. So yeah, it's it's it's it's really a crazy experience. And I feel like for everybody that lived something like that and lost their houses or whatever, i it is probably
a hard movie to watch, but that's also the reason why we wanted to be as respectful as possible to to it and and and and the main reason we want to I mean when we were thinking about how to shoot a fire and we we never watched like other movies fires because we didn't want it to be the Hollywood version of a fire. We we we wanted it to be as real as possible and and and to be respectful to it, so we were just watching footage of real fires and that's what we tried to mimic somehow. Yeah, the conversation the the conversations, I should say plural that you have had about the choice of the Ari Alexa camera system, whether it's the thirty five or the the Alexa Mini, either one, one of the things I found really interesting about it is back when like the cinema verite movement was started, it started because they could use lightweight sixteen millimeter cameras and just burn tons of film and get as much coverage of something without
the tool being and the instrument of recording these images being too much of a a a burden to production. And I think that you just can't make I don't feel like you could make a movie like this in the way that you made it if you were shooting this thing on film. Do you have any comments about about the choice to shoot video for this? Well totally I feel like it's it's I mean, each movie is it's a different movie and there's reasons to to choose different cameras in different formats depending on why you're shooting. But it's conversation we were having actually, Clint the other day. We were talking about it and he's mentioned something like, Okay, the next one we need to do on film. And then at some point we were like
Should we and that's something that I said to him, I said like I feel like a lot of things that happen on Train Dreams wouldn't have happened if we were shooting in film. I feel like there's so many aspects of what we got that were only possible because we were shooting with with with the Alexa. Mm-hmm. That I feel like it is a question, l do we wanna give up those things? What what do we wanna give up? I feel like a every choice basically makes you give up other things. And I feel like from shooting with single candles sometimes and fire and natural light all the time and being able to run around the actors for thirty minutes nonstop for all those improvs and etc. that were only possible because sorry.
because of the the camera we chose and how much of those moments are in the movie and how special they are and all the that magic do we wanna lose that, you know. So I I feel like it's always a conversation of again, like each movie is a different movie, but I it was funny was getting to that realization together, you know, that it's like mm maybe d maybe not, you know, maybe this is the the special thing here. Maybe this is what we wanna keep pursuing and evolving the the the amazing things we were able to get because of of Del Axit's Yeah that that agility, that flexibility that it does feel like it's part of the current it's part of the current Adolpho Clint visual language is shooting these camera systems. Interestingly enough it's the same aspect ratio of VistaVision, which I will come back to at the end of the conversation. Okay, let's go later
can you pick a moment from Train Dreams that was either super tough to pull off or that you're just really proud of? I can think of the obvious, which is pinning a red Komodo to the tree that's felled by loggers. Everybody brings up that shot to me and I don't blame them. It's it's a re it's a stunning choice.
Maybe something people might not think of. Let me think. I think that scene with Apostle Frank when he's shot. I have a whole thing I want to do on that. Okay. Okay. Should we wait? Okay. Yeah, let's wait. let's wait. Okay. Yeah. Are there moments from the movie where it doesn't matter how many times you've seen it, Adolpho? I need I know you've seen it hundreds of times, my man, that you still enjoy the pleasure of seeing them on the big screen. I don't enjoy any of it. I'm always suffering. I'm always like looking at the movie and thinking what I could have done better and seeing little problems or big problems and it's the other day again I was like before the the the movie came out on Netflix, I saw something that was not quite right and then I sent a message to Clinton saying maybe that's too late, but can we maybe change it? And then he was just like, My friend, we just need to stop watching this movie.
Well like it's true, you know, like if if you keep watching it and we we have to watch it a hundred times because I mean for the editing and then I saw a bunch of versions of that it but then later when I'm grading the movie I watch it like two hundred times and then every time it goes to a different platform and then Netflix put it on their like you need to check the DCP, you need to check the thirty five mil print, and when Netflix put on the platform you need to check that too. Ever so so you watch it so many times. That it's just hard because you end up like just like picking so many little things that you're not even supposed to be picking. So it's hard it it's Well, you get to move on to the next one and the movie gets to become the audience's movie, which is so wonderful about filmmaking. You're done. It's it's also part of the of the conversation again, to to to mention conversations with Clint, but constantly I'm just texting him saying like, Okay, can we just shoot the next one? I'm tired of
Speaking about this one, let's just kill another one and and and I fe I say that like it's the the easiest way to deal with the frustrations of your past film is to just do another one. Then you forget everything and that becomes a problem from the past and it's not even relevant anymore. I was showing Jockey actually like I don't know, like five months ago to my girlfriend because we've been together for just a year now. And she haven't seen it. So if she wanted to watch it, and I watched it with her, it was amazing because after so many years, then I finally watched it again. And for the first time I was really like just watching it somehow. And I thought, this is this is cool. You know, it's it's it's okay. I couldn't see as many problems. I wasn't like trying to find problems or anything. So I feel like it's good also to have a distance from it and to be able to Yeah, you get to you it over time you get to turn a cold eye on your own work, which that's always really fun. Well, hopefully.
In a couple years I can watch Train Dreams and enjoy it. Well, let's talk about the composition and the moment that you just started to bring up about Buckskin Sam. It's the stranger who shows up to avenge his brother and he ends up shooting the preacher Buckskin Sam, who we have been introduced to as Apostle Frank, right? Played brilliantly by Paul Schneider. I think he's still talking somewhere. Yeah. Yes. We had a conversation on our podcast about the decision to add this moment to the story in the movie. It's not in Denis Johnson's book, but you mentioned to Edward.
in your interview on the American Society of Cinematographers, that it feels like a story being told by someone. And I just love that. That's actually a little bit how we framed it in our conversation on our podcast, is it it feels like something like an old folk tale, like a like a legend. And so I wanted to ask about your conversation about that writing that scene, because it is one small Dolly move and then it's just a couple focus pulls. Everything else takes place kind of in deep focus. By the way, shout out your your focus puller on this movie. my god. Nick Kelling, best. We never missed one single take because of him and constantly shooting wide open, no marks and incredible. He's a genius. And in this scene, there are a few different polls that are made that are critical to the scene being pulled off. And after seeing it a second time, I'm really glad that they wrote that scene.
It and I'm glad it made the edit. It's an incredible conversation piece. It feels almost dreamlike. No edits, one angle. It's about a hundred seconds long. And you shot you told you told Edward that you shot coverage, but Parker Laramie didn't use any of it in the edit. No, we didn't shoot it. We planned on doing it, but we didn't because we didn't have time. So that was the last thing we were going to shoot on the last day, actually. And we just ran out of time and we were we we knew we would have like I don't know half an hour to shoot a scene or something like that. So it's one of those decisions. From the beginning I I had a feeling that this should be only one shot. And then Clint like, Maybe we need the coverage or that so we decided on on having some coverage. So it's one of those good things that also happened that like, okay, we didn't have the time, so we had to commit to to that shot. And yeah, it is what it is. I feel like there's
Going back to what you said about almost that folk aspect to it, there's something about the whole movie of wanting to feel like you're watching a memory, right? That we we wanted that from for the whole story. Almost like you're watching that guy's story through memories, and you're almost hearing someone talk about that story, and you're not really sure what actually happened or not, and it comes back and forth, and then you Again, as you anytime you're telling a story about someone's life, you like start on a linear c chronological order and then you remember something that actually happened ten years before that and then you go back to that and then that allows you to keep moving forward and that's basically the the way the movie is is is written and and edited. But there's this few things in the movie that happened that feels more like a tale, and basically are those characters that he's introduced.
along his life, one of them being Will Macy, one of them being Will Macy's character Arnes, one bet them being Apostle Frank with so many names. And so I feel like on on those moments in the movie we wanted it to feel more like that, with like Will Macy's character, that whole montage with the zooms that we wanted to have a more comedic feeling to it. And on this one it was a lot about him talking and talking and talking nonstop. And you're just there observing almost like you are one of those guys sitting there resting during your lunchtime or during a break or whatever. That point of view is it you might as well be somebody who's a logger. Exactly. Yeah, it's just another guy sitting there. Yeah. And it's almost like when that guy comes and appears, you almost like just giving one step back to to see you know, okay. And that's it. And that's the only motivation the camera has basically.
As an observer, also like, okay, what's what's happening here? And and that's it. And then the whole thing unfolds in one shot. And as I said probably on that conversation with Edu, there was something about also not over glamorizing the killings and those things that happen. And I feel like seeing it from a distance also helps with that. Yeah, it's so great. I think it's like my Guest on that podcast, a local best selling author, one of the greatest living American novelists, Jess Walter, said he he liked it because he thought it was one of those things where the characters in the movie could imagine them 10 years later being like, Do you remember when that guy showed up in our camp and shot Apostle Frank? man, that was crazy. I want to talk a little bit more about your your approach stylistically, whether it's Felicity Jones, Harrison Ford, I just saw your Scotch ad. It's brilliant. I will drop a link to that.
Clifton Collins Jr., Joel Edgerton, being inside these actors' spaces, you talked about holding your emotions and not breaking down in tears when filming Clifton Collins during that final scene of Jockey. that moment through the final credits is totally unforgettable. It's another moment where I really want people to watch these two movies and take some take some moments to appreciate the similarities and some of the differences, but you really like campfires. Those embers from The Fire and Jockey, that's one of the best like final credit sequences and edits that I can remember from a movie that I've watched in years. So remarkable. you obviously had to do the same thing with Joel and Train Dreams. Or how about being near the most effortlessly charming human being in the history of planet Earth with Harrison Ford in that ad. What do you think of the view? It's awesome, man.
And the whiskey. Nice, huh? Yeah, that's nice. That's really nice. Yeah. come on, let's show all's done. You got it, buddy. The intimacy of these performances, the relationship you have with actors, these long takes, I think it's like an incredible gift to be able to do that. But it's also the story, right? The characters are going through these transformative, painful kind of catharses, so To me, in addition to your formidable skills as a cinematographer, I think this ability to just stay with actors for this length of time and be comfortable might be your superpower, Adolpho. That's a great superpower. Do you yeah, do you feel like you become best friends with these actors when the film is done? Often that's the case. I mean, not best friends, but often really good relationships. And I feel like it comes
I feel like the fact that like you you were just talking about, I was thinking about it. The fact that both those movies, Jockey and Train Dreams, those character faces and the the the last shot of both those movies, sorry sorry for the spoilers, but are just their faces and how much they transmit everything just with their emotions. First of all, talk about how amazing both those actors are and how powerful their their their faces and their acting is. But also about that relationship. I feel like it's so important. I always I always say that for me it's so hard. I I'm I'm I'm I'm shy. I I'm I don't deal well with being in front of a camera. Like this is easier because it's a zoom. So if like I'm home and feels easier. But like whenever I'm doing those interviews with a bunch of lights and so many cameras, I I
I don't feel comfortable at all, at all. And it's so hard for me to imagine being on that side, being exposed. I know how powerful the camera is. So it's so so hard for me to imagine myself completely vulnerable there in front of the camera, with a bunch of lights and a bunch of people watching you deliver everything, crying, having sex, whatever, like so many things that actors need to do. They're completely exposed there. And even though they are actors and They are amazing on doing that and they even the most experienced ones or the less experienced ones can do it can do it well. I feel like because it doesn't go to my mind that they can do it, the more I can do to help them feel comfortable, almost like putting myself in their position, even though they don't have the same problems with the camera that I have, probably. But I feel like having that kind of safe environment.
with less footprint where they can actually move and without constraining them so much with okay, this is your mark, this is where you need to hit total light is in your face. And also creating a good relationship so we can actually be like almost touching each other because sometimes I am doing that, you know, with 'cause I have the camera so close to them o when I'm operating. And creating that kind of really free space that allows
both of us to inhabit that same place at the same time, like almost like also being visible at the same time. Like often on those interviews now I hear Will Maysky or Joe, whatever thing, I often didn't even know Adolpho was there, you know, and I was just wondering. And I feel like that's also great to hear because a lot of times I was like one inch from them. It's amazing to hear that they were not really necessarily aware of where I was. But that also tells a lot about how much that trust is mutual because if they not worrying about where the camera is, then they are delivering everything. They're delivering from their feet to their hairs and toes and everything, you know? So it's just like I don't know. I feel like creating that environment for them might help with them feeling comfortable around me and and and so I don't know. I c I can't help but think of a moment in Jockey when it's the final scene between Gabriel played by
Moises, Arias, and Jackson played by Clifton Collins Jr. It's their final moment together, and their performances are so stunning. And the camera is just you are so close. And I can tell by the focal length that you are not very far away. No, I think that was probably like an eighteen or a twenty five. I don't remember right now. It's pretty wide. And like I'm thinking to myself, this guy has them so comfortable. And so I say it's your superpower. I also think if you could give any t tell anything to a somebody who wants to work as a DP, just something to think about, the sensitivity that you're talking about to the performer and not referring to an actor as talent, you know, goes a long way. Those are people who are in the most vulnerable space. So shout out to you. All right. I gotta talk to you a little bit about Spokane before I let you go. We'd love to. Just a few thoughts about your experience at the Spokane film crew. I gotta shout out my homies.
There's way too many of them to name, but I just want to specifically mention Daniel Schaefer, the stills photographer. So many of Daniel's incredible set photos will be used on this podcast. I watched the movie twice at our local independent movie theater, The Magic Lantern. It's sold out for several days. The word of mouth was huge. People in Spokane are really proud of this movie, Adolpho. Please give my best to Clint Bentley as well. Jungle Cat was at the screening. He hadn't seen the movie. He and his partner Seni, they were both deeply moved by it.
Could you just say a couple things about your experience working with the Spokane crew? Well, first of all, it was amazing. I think we had a lot of people from there, but also from other areas in Washington. And everybody was amazing. Everybody was really open to make the film happen. The reason we have the movie the way we have it is because of everybody involved on it. I feel like with people like Jungle Cat, it's so amazing how I feel like it's one of those amazing things about being a a filmmaker is that you got to know people that you would never meet if it wasn't because of that. If if if if I wasn't doing what I do, I would never be in Washington State meeting Jungle Cat, you know, and seeing him do his work. Like in what other world that would happen. I have to stop for just a second to say I don't think my audience might realize this. Jungle Cat is a human being. He's a man who is
has connections to loggers and connections to all kinds of things. He's a a person that just knows places, spaces, people, and helped the crew with finding different locations and stuff like that. So I just wanted to make sure that I'm clear on Jungle Cat as a is a person. And an amazing, incredible logger that could pinpoint a tree to whatever he wanted. So yeah, he he was so I feel like that's the thing. Like that's the the biggest privilege in my work is to be able to meet all those incredible people I would never meet if it wasn't for that. And I feel like besides work, Spokane well, it became such a special place. I I feel like it's always hard because you go to different places to shoot a movie and you always like stay in a place that you never know if you're gonna like it or not. And it was just
that feeling, you know, going to Spokane, I was like, okay, what what what is this gonna be like? And I feel like finding s special places in Spokane that I love, Magic Lantern being one of them that I okay, that I had to go to, you know, on my weekends, it was a pleasure to go there, Huckleberries, do my grocery every time. It was just like the best place. So I feel like there's all those small things that Spokane had that made it
Easier and amazing people too that I met besides of the crew. Yeah. that was just I don't know, key to to make not only the experience useful in terms of work, but also lovely f as as as also as a human being inhabiting a place. I can't wait for them to hear this. I wanna end this conversation by talking a little bit about the reception of the movie. The award season is cool, Adolpho. You're gonna win a lot of awards. Soak it all up. When you make the movie in this way and everybody falls in love with it, that is what's really special about it to me. I agree with Edu when he said that this movie changes people's is gonna change people's lives. I see it in comments, not just on social media, but in conversations with people. When we did our podcast on Train Dreams, we focused a lot on the adaptation. And Jess Walter knew Denis Johnson.
We had a great conversation about the differences between the two the two texts, but I want to read something to you from a film critic from Vulture. Her name is Roxana Hadari. She had this to say As Granier gets older and more withdrawn from society, he realizes that all our work may eventually become as obsolete as both the Spokane International Railway and the bridge that the Chinese worker was thrown off of, now replaced with a concrete and steel version. Instead, all we have in this world are our connections to other people, the ones we befriend, the ones we love, the ones we hurt, the ones we betray. And that lesson relates to train dreams is overarching advocacy for dignity for everyone and empathy for everything. The trees we cut down, the landscape we pull resources from, the people we take for granted or have lost to history, they all have value. And train dreams argues that they all deserve our respect.
I can't help but feel like Roxana is also describing the process of making this film. That's beautiful. You mentioned that you identified with Robert Grainier as an outsider with this group of people who many of whom you didn't know very well at all. And you were very far from your own home. And I, you know, I kind of want to end the section talking about Washington State in Northern Idaho by saying, Do you think you'll ever come back? I hope so. I mean, there's definitely reasons too. And I would love to not even for work, you know, just to come back and hang. Go to Magic. You you know where to find me. You know where the magic lantern is. Clint Bentley, if you're listening to this ever. Let's write something set in in a region that could be eastern Washington or Northern Idaho. let's wrap by saying, What are you working on now? You rapped Remain, the latest night Shymelon movie. That yeah. Speaking of Vist VistaVision.
That's it. We wrapped in August. editing is happening right now. yeah, we shot in Rhode Island, so the other side of the US. VistaVision, crazy. That had to be a monumental shift in stylistic approach. Completely. And again, as I said, each movie is a different movie, its story is a different story, and also each director is a different director. Very different. From what we had on Train Dreams. But I also can't wait to watch it myself, actually. Let's go. I might have to delete this from the podcast, but I'm gonna bring it up. Clifton Collins Jr. says that there might be a project, some type of collaboration with you, maybe about his grandfather, Pedro Gonzalez. Yes, it's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful story. and I asked him if I could bring this up. He said he said it might actually help to get a subtle leak.
He's he's one of I mean, as we were saying before, it's like those situations where you meet someone in a movie and you just hope you can work again and again with them. So hopefully it happens. Hopefully it happens. Independent Spirit Awards been nominated for Best Feature, Best Lead Performance, and Best Cinematography. Adolpho, you know how I feel. I think I think I've made it obvious. I hope you get that Oscar nomination. But more than that, I hope you continue making films like Train Dreams and Jockey. Thank you. You mentioned that when you see Train Dreams, you can't help but notice the mistakes. But did you also feel a language evolving from the movies that you make with Clint? And I can't and you said you can't wait to push it even further. Well, I just want to say one person's opinion. Whatever you and Clint and Greg and Alex and Bryce and Parker do next, sign my ass up. Well, hopefully soon. Hopefully soon.
Thank you, Adolpho, so much for coming out here and chatting with me and not just making train dreams but making this version of Train Dreams. And thank you, of course, for coming on the show and chatting with me. I really appreciate your time. Lovely. Such a good chat. Thank you. Thank you so much. Cheers. All those moments will be lost in time by